Aim: How can we evaluate Odysseus’ leadership through his decision-making in his encounter with “Scylla and Charybdis” in Homer’s Odyssey?
Do Now:
Would you sacrifice one person in order to save five other people?
This question is an introduction to the Trolley Problem, a very popular series of thought experiments to measure one’s ethical and psychological thought process.
As a class we watched a video to explain the dilemma: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOpf6KcWYyw
To summarize, the standard scenario is a runaway trolley is heading towards five workers on a railway line. It’s impossible to warn them, but you are close to a lever that would switch the directions of the tracks to where a single worker also is. Rationally, most people would pick to save the five workers and sacrifice one, but when presented with different possibilities, many of them changed their minds. This led us to a class Kahoot, in which we had other situations of the Trolley Problem to see if it would affect our decisions.
Some of the prompts included:
The one worker is going to die from an incurable illness in one week
The one worker is actually your best friend
The one person is actually a world-class surgeon
By knowing the circumstances of the people or changing the number of people, the rational decision might not be to save the majority, as these people aren’t merely strangers to you anymore.
After the Kahoot, we were asked what influenced our decision making and the factors we used to choose an answer. Levan said that it depended on who the people were in general, not necessarily from how the person influences them emotionally, for example the killers vs. the surgeon. He might not have a connection to these people, but he could clearly assess if these people were worth saving or not based on their descriptions. Chris and I agreed on picking to save the majority if we don’t know the people’s backgrounds, whereas if we did know the backgrounds we would pick the one that has more of a contribution to society in our perspectives-a logical perspective. An example would be the surgeon, in which we will sacrifice the lives of those five people because the surgeon can potentially save way more people throughout their career. This class discussion will allow us to see Odysseus’s mindset and his decisions on the safety of his men.
Here you can see the decision making skills of very knowledgeable individuals on the Trolley Problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-N_RZJUAQY4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZULuedsaB9U
Background Information:
Before the reading of Scylla and Charybdis, we first have to understand how these monsters came to be. There are many versions of how these monsters came to be, along with many interpretations of the visual aspect of these monsters. The specific context we’re focusing on would be the origin stories in which both sea monsters were regarded as beautiful nymphs before being cursed into this form.
Scylla(sil-luh)- Scylla was a sea monster with twelve feet, six heads each encased with three rows of teeth and a body made up of repulsive beasts(dogs), living underneath a threatening rock. Once a nymph and daughter of Phorcys(for-sees), Glaucus(glaw-kus), a fisherman turned sea god, fell in love with her. He went to Circe’s island to ask for a love potion as Scylla refused to return his love, but Circe fell in love with him after seeing his dedication to Scylla. Getting rejected by Glaucus, Circe poisoned the pool where Scylla bathed and turned her into her monstrous form. Devastated, Scylla terrorizes anything that’s within reach of her. Ships that pass would have six men eaten, one for each head of hers.
Charybdis(k-rib-dis)- Charybdis was a sea monster depicted as a whirlpool. Previously a nymph and daughter of Poseidon, she decided to steal Heracles’(Hercules) cattle. As punishment, Zeus turned her into a monster that sucks in and regurgitates water three times a day. This was used as an explanation for the turning of the tides. She is located opposite of Scylla, in a cave on the other side of the strait of Messina, waiting to suck in ships.
Video for further understanding on Scylla: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF3gVMM8RZI (1:45-9:45)
Video for further understanding on Charybdis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIRTWxQOiLs
Spirit Reading:
After seeing the framework on the sea monsters and why they pose a threat to Odysseus and his men, we spirit read the actual story to see the entire situation that Odysseus was put in. We were asked to keep in mind why he chose one place over the other if they were both dangerous.
The story: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OH77TtDun-Lkp1Oyq_BLisyQTIKKasr0/view
In the story, we learn that Odysseus steers his men towards Scylla and he does not tell them that there was going to be a monster because he knew they wouldn’t be able to do anything. Unfortunately, they ended up having to face both Charybdis and Scylla anyway, and barely made it out alive. While his men were focused on the tides sent by Charybdis, Scylla grabbed six of his men and ate them. In another addition to the story, Odysseus gets swept back towards Charybdis, losing his raft and is clinging to a fig tree growing over Charybdis’ lair. When his raft gets expelled from the next tide, he manages to get onto the ship and leave. Odysseus and his remaining crew manage to get past the strait, where he feels the most pity and grief he’s ever felt.
When asked to recall the question we were asked before reading, I said that Odysseus probably wanted to save more of his men by going through Scylla because only six of his men would’ve died contrary to his whole team being in danger going through Charybdis. We later learn this is the advice Circe gave him.
Circe’s Advice:
Upon returning to Aeaea and burying Elpenor, Odysseus receives more advice from Circe regarding the Sirens and the sea monsters in the strait of Messina. Odysseus wanted a way to save all his men by asking if there was a way to escape Charybdis and fight off Scylla, by which Circe berates him for being foolish. Circe said the best way to pass through the strait was to keep to the rocks of where Scylla was and sacrifice six of his men because she was immortal and there was no way to fight her. Only one ship, the Argo, has managed to pass through the strait unscatched, with no men lost.
The Argo- A ship on which Jason and the Argonauts sailed from Iolcos to Colchis to retrieve the Golden Fleece. The ship looked like a fifty-oared gallery, constructed from Timber cut from the mountains Pelion. The goddess Athena, helped Jason with the building, fitting the bow of the boat with an oracular piece of wood that can speak and make prophecies. Many notable heroes were recruited including Heracles and Peleus, father of Achilles. Not only was the boat made of special properties, the Argonauts received help from Hera, who ordered Thetis, a Nereid nymph, and Achilles mother, to guide them through the strait, being able to escape both sea monsters flawlessly.
More information on the Argonaut’s journey: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peFwikd2-bw
From this reaction we can see that Odysseus is either taking up his responsibilities as a leader and starting to care for his men, or that his arrogance is still persisting, wanting to put his men at risk and disrespect the wishes of the gods by trying to repeat what the Argo has done for the fame. He was ready to rush into a problem once again, without being prepared, getting scolded by Circe in doing so. Unlike Jason and the Argonauts, Odysseus was cursed by the gods, with no special ship, so he would’ve never been able to replicate what the Argo did. In the end, however, Odysseus suppressed his instincts to fight Scylla to escape without a delay and possibly jeopardizing more of his men, putting them first before his desires.
Allusions:
As a class, we moved onto allusions to understand the idiom/quotes derived from this story of Odysseus facing Scylla and Charybdis.
Allusion-noun. A brief and indirect reference within a literary work to a historical, literary, or biblical character, place or event, which is not explained.
They are not explained, as writers include them with the intent that audiences already know the meaning from prior experiences
Helps in creation of a theme or in setting the mood.
In other familiar words, an allusion is a quick reference to something else as maybe a tribute, or a joke that you’re expected to understand only if you recognize the original version.
Types of Allusions:
Biblical-referring to the Bible or a religious work
Classical-referring to Classical literature(literature of ancient Greece and Rome)
Literary-referring to another literary work
(Bonfire of the Vanities, novel by Tom Wolfe)
Historical-referring to an event in history
(In reference to the Saturday Night Live comedy sketch. The phrase itself can stand to mean anything that a person is longing for or feels is lacking)
Allusions can be found everywhere and be about anything
Popular television series like “Family Guy,” and “The Simpsons” show many pop culture references to other movies and shows.
We watched a clip of Family Guy in which the children were singing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldzPAf9EUOQ&t=9s
The song they were singing connects to the movie “The Sound of Music”, which you wouldn’t have understood had you not watched the movie. It’s important to have experiences with many kinds of cultures and arts to be able to grasp these allusions.
This is a reference to Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs in which the Simpson characters play the dwarves who most correspond with their personality. For example, Moe is Grumpy, but Lisa calls him “Crabby” because they are her own “original” characters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKy8wYFn0OU
This is a reference to Snoopy, in which he iconically lies down on top of his unique colored doghouse. In Family Guy, Brian does the same, lying in the same manner, wondering about something.
Allusions are used all the time by writers and musicians. They are used to create a mood within a short period of time rather than with a long explanation. It helps audiences relate to the creators with references that have meaning outside of the idea or song. Numerous allusions can relate to a bigger theme. For example, a musician can use Biblical allusions to emphasize on his religious beliefs. Another example is a writer using classical allusions to compare a character to qualities of greek heroes or gods, like using “Pandora’s Box” as an explanation for something that seems enticing but it was actually something self destructive and problematic. Allusions are also used modernly as entertainment as well. An example would be on Bitmoji in which Salvador Dali’s painting “Persistence of Memory” is used to say goodnight. The actual painting symbolizes the passing of time as one dreams, which is fitting to use to wish someone
a good night.
In relation to Odysseus and his journey through the strait of Messina, widely used phrases “Stuck between a rock and a hard place,” and “Choosing the lesser of two evils,” were taken from this story of Odysseus having to choose between Scylla and Charybdis. Gabrielle said that both choices are difficult situations to be in, so it would mean to pick the one that results in less consequences. Ms. Peterson talks about politics, in which we only elect the people that would benefit us more than the other, not necessarily because one is the best fit for the role.
Point of View:
As a group, we moved onto opinion based discussion questions, in which we show our point of view and support our beliefs over what we feel about Odysseus’ decisions.
(Restated Questions)
Imagine you are Odysseus or one of his crew members, what are your thoughts on his choice to face Scylla, and are you supportive of this decision?
Levan and his group were supportive of Odysseus’ decision of going closer to Scylla because he was only risking six of his men’s lives instead of the whole crew. This would result in more of his men being saved. Roni added on and said that these men were desperate to return home and Scylla at least provided the majority of the men with that opportunity to even dream of seeing their families. However, Roni also supported the decision of going to Charybdis because he wouldn’t have wanted to live knowing he sacrificed his men for himself, but Wilson refuted saying that many others have already sacrificed themselves due to Odysseus’ decisions. Gabrielle agreed and said that with Scylla, there was a fixed number of fatalities and it could’ve only been six people killed, while it was less predictable with Charybdis.
Personally, I also support Odysseus’ decision because he’s prioritizing the rest of his men instead of trying to save everybody and putting them all at greater risk. However, as a crew member I would be indifferent because Odysseus never tells his men about the monsters, thus I would not have known about his decision and the dangers of the strait.
The quote “But as I sent them on toward Scylla, I told them nothing, as they could do nothing.” shows Odysseus deciding against telling his men of the dangers.
Would you have done the same thing as the leader and if you were a crew member, would you have wanted to know where you were heading? Why or why not?
Why do you think Odysseus chose to not share this information with his crew?
Gabrielle said she wouldn’t have wanted to know because then she would’ve been able to stay more alert. If she knew she would panic and not be of use to the crew. If she was the leader, she would’ve done the same thing, except she would’ve only told some of the crew in case something went wrong and not all of them. Sora added in and said that if Odysseus had told his crew, aside from the panicking, there would have been disagreements and a possible mutiny could’ve arised before they even got there.
I disagreed with the first point because I would’ve wanted to know if there was a chance of me dying. If the end result was six people dying anyway, I believe that there could’ve been more of an effort to fight Scylla. Although she may be immortal, it doesn’t mean she can’t be rendered immobile or vulnerable in some way, and that might’ve been able to save more people instead of just giving up six of the crew. However, I would’ve made the same decision as Odysseus because she can only kill six people with six heads and you can make it out of there fast enough to still keep everybody else safe. Odysseus knew his men were cowardly and sometimes jealous of him, thus choosing to keep the information to himself. His crew opening his bag of winds because they believed it was full of riches, proved that they were envious of him, so it was very likely they would’ve put the whole ship at risk if they knew Scylla could kill any one of them.
Wrap-Up:
As a concluding question, we were asked how the story of Scylla and Charybdis correlated back to the Trolley Problem from the beginning of the lesson.
Roni said that they were essentially the same scenarios because both involved sacrificing human lives to save other human lives; It was only a matter of the number of people included and how it factors into which decision will be made. Someone was going to die in either of these problems, so it was a natural response to minimize the losses.
Reflection:
Today’s lesson evaluated the decision making of Odysseus, and of our class when presented with two choices that are just as bad as each other. In the case with the Trolley Problem I got to see the mentalities of some people, and learn how to weigh my options. Some people might not look at the specifics of a person, and choose to save based on the numbers alone, like with the five criminals, and the one person on the other side, while others rely heavily on outside information to make a choice, regardless of the number of people involved. It became a matter of choosing to be rational over being compassionate. But then why is it so controversial with different circumstances? I think it’s a matter of apathy and the level of involvement. As long as it doesn’t involve someone directly, they would be more likely to help, just like in the case with the majority of people deciding to pull the level, but less likely choosing to pick to push the overweight person over to stop the trolley. The lever changes the tracks, but they aren’t physically involved whereas pushing the person over, you are killing them off with your own hands. I think this reflects on society today, where people don’t care about something unless it affects them directly. For example, the controversy surrounding minimum wage, where workers don’t want to work unless they get paid more and people being against it until they have nobody to serve them shows that situations don’t matter unless you’re suddenly negatively impacted, like choosing which person to kill in the Trolley Problem. People don’t want to take the risk and put themselves on the spot in fear of making a wrong decision, much like the Trolley Problem in which you are pressured to choose one of two bad choices. The Trolley Problem emphasizes being logical, but also being proactive and coming to consistent conclusions. However, Odysseus shows that compassion and glory might not always be the answer. He had to hold himself back for the entire ordeal because he wanted to fight Scylla, but also wanted to prioritize his men. However, I think he should’ve taken a risk because he ended up facing both monsters anyway, and by trying to sacrifice a particular number, he ended up losing more, including holding on for his own life. In life, people regret playing it secure all the time, losing their one chance to follow their gut feelings. They may not get the job they wanted, or be able to reach their dreams because they want security instead of fulfillment. I think it would’ve been difficult in Odysseus’ position to make a choice because these men were like his second family, being stranded for such a long period of time, facing so many hindrances together and making memories together, even if they’re horrible ones. I would’ve felt a terrible sense of guilt knowing that I willingly led the same people who had their uttermost trust in me to death. Maybe not all the solutions are a simple formula, as you cannot define the worth of your crew based on how many people to sacrifice, even if it’s the most logical. Lastly, the new technique of using allusions helps emphasize the meaning of something greatly. I did not know that the phrase “stuck being a rock and a hard place” originated from this story about Odysseus, but now I can certainly relate and see the unfair choices he had to choose from. For homework, we had to find allusions and write down what is trying to be conveyed, and it allowed me to see new references I just brushed over before. An example would be from “To Kill a Mockingbird,” in which they mention “the crash” which readers later learn to mean the Great Depression. Another example, would be chess, in reference to another game, Indian Chaturanga, where the main rules were derived from. Chess can also stand for medieval times and the warring periods, in which each part of the military and the nobles are important in claiming victory. Allusions also encourage expanding one’s horizons because nobody wants to be left out, and understanding the context shows you’re well
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